Waterboarding

Ja'far wrote:

You aren't exactly refuting it.

I thought I would post John McCain's words here, since I agree with him and he is a much more effective articulator of his opinion:

Quote :

Our enemies did not adhere to the Geneva Convention. Many of my comrades were subjected to very cruel, very inhumane, and degrading treatment, a few of them even unto death. But every single one of us knew and took great strength from the belief that we were different from our enemies, that we were better than them, that if the roles were reversed, we would not disgrace ourselves by committing or countenancing such mistreatment of them. That faith was indispensable not only to our survival but to our attempts to return home with honor. Many of the men I served with would have preferred death to such dishonor.

The enemies we fight today hold such liberal notions in contempt as they hold in contempt the international conventions that enshrine them, such as the Geneva Conventions and the Treaty on Torture. I know that. But we are better than them, and we are stronger for our faith, and we will prevail.

I submit to my colleagues that it is indispensable to our success in this war that our service men and women know that in the discharge of their dangerous responsibilities to their country they are never expected to forget that they are Americans and the valiant defenders of a sacred idea of how nations should govern their own affairs and their relations with others, even our enemies.

Waterboarding isn't remotely close to what he describes and he knows that, yet he kowtows to the left. It's no wonder he ran such a poor campaign and lost the election.

Mongo wrote:

Ja'far wrote:

You aren't exactly refuting it.

I thought I would post John McCain's words here, since I agree with him and he is a much more effective articulator of his opinion:

Quote :

Our enemies did not adhere to the Geneva Convention. Many of my comrades were subjected to very cruel, very inhumane, and degrading treatment, a few of them even unto death. But every single one of us knew and took great strength from the belief that we were different from our enemies, that we were better than them, that if the roles were reversed, we would not disgrace ourselves by committing or countenancing such mistreatment of them. That faith was indispensable not only to our survival but to our attempts to return home with honor. Many of the men I served with would have preferred death to such dishonor.

The enemies we fight today hold such liberal notions in contempt as they hold in contempt the international conventions that enshrine them, such as the Geneva Conventions and the Treaty on Torture. I know that. But we are better than them, and we are stronger for our faith, and we will prevail.

I submit to my colleagues that it is indispensable to our success in this war that our service men and women know that in the discharge of their dangerous responsibilities to their country they are never expected to forget that they are Americans and the valiant defenders of a sacred idea of how nations should govern their own affairs and their relations with others, even our enemies.

Waterboarding isn't remotely close to what he describes and he knows that, yet he kowtows to the left. It's no wonder he ran such a poor campaign and lost the election.

I think the only way "pro-waterboarding" people are going to realize that it is indeed torture is for them to volunteer to have it done on themselves. It's easy to do. Just get a large board, make sure your feet are higher than your head, have someone hold you down, put a towel over your face and start pouring. It would be interesting how many people would change their minds if they had it done to them 100 times. And I don't understand why people are avoiding my obvious points. We put people to death for doing this to our soldiers because it was considered torture. What's the difference? They weren't Americans. That's it. Sorry.

Mongo wrote:

Waterboarding isn't remotely close to what he describes and he knows that, yet he kowtows to the left. It's no wonder he ran such a poor campaign and lost the election.

Really? We had Japanese interrogators executed for crimes against humanity due to their practice of waterboarding after WWII.

Here is Ronald Reagan's stance on torture when he signed the UN Convention of Torture:

Quote :

The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention . It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.

The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called 'universal jurisdiction.' Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution.

[quote="Ja'far"]

Mongo wrote:

Really? We had Japanese interrogators executed for crimes against humanity due to their practice of waterboarding after WWII.

Here is Ronald Reagan's stance on torture when he signed the UN Convention of Torture:

Quote :

The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention . It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.

The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called 'universal jurisdiction.' Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution.

Did they have doctors standing there watching as we do? Something tells me NO. Did the Japanese actually drown people they interrogated? Something tells me YES.

gringaloca wrote:

I think the only way "pro-waterboarding" people are going to realize that it is indeed torture is for them to volunteer to have it done on themselves. It's easy to do. Just get a large board, make sure your feet are higher than your head, have someone hold you down, put a towel over your face and start pouring. It would be interesting how many people would change their minds if they had it done to them 100 times. And I don't understand why people are avoiding my obvious points. We put people to death for doing this to our soldiers because it was considered torture. What's the difference? They weren't Americans. That's it. Sorry.

Tell you what, we can do a little experiment. I'll get waterboarded as many times as you like and you can get your hands broken, maybe a leg. Then you can take a series of severe beatings for a little while followed by bamboo shoved under your fingernails and/or toenails. Then a brief little electrocution period and then for good measure, if you like, you can have your head lopped off. At the end we'll see who was truly tortured and which of the two of us did better.

Judge Roy Bean wrote:

gringaloca wrote:

I think the only way "pro-waterboarding" people are going to realize that it is indeed torture is for them to volunteer to have it done on themselves. It's easy to do. Just get a large board, make sure your feet are higher than your head, have someone hold you down, put a towel over your face and start pouring. It would be interesting how many people would change their minds if they had it done to them 100 times. And I don't understand why people are avoiding my obvious points. We put people to death for doing this to our soldiers because it was considered torture. What's the difference? They weren't Americans. That's it. Sorry.

Tell you what, we can do a little experiment. I'll get waterboarded as many times as you like and you can get your hands broken, maybe a leg. Then you can take a series of severe beatings for a little while followed by bamboo shoved under your fingernails and/or toenails. Then a brief little electrocution period and then for good measure, if you like, you can have your head lopped off. At the end we'll see who was truly tortured and which of the two of us did better.

Torture is torture is torture is torture. It doesn't matter if it involves blood or broken bones. Kinda like some dumb woman on tv today saying "well, they all came back with all their parts. What are they complaining about?" Ummm, try telling that to a woman who has just been raped. Simulated drowning is not a joyous experience. You don't have to shove bamboo under someones finger nails to be considered torture. Ever heard of post traumatic stress syndrome? Many of our vets have it. You think this doesn't ruin people for life mentally? And as far as the broken bones, beatings, electrocutions, etc... Not to mention sexual abuse.. what the heck do you think was going down at Abu Graib? All those things PLUS some. It's obvious that some believe that it's ok to torture people especially if it was a republican they voted for calling the shots. If Obama did this sort of thing, people would be forming the "hunting party" to track him down. My guess is that if your son or daughter was overseas and they were waterboarding them 200 times on tv and you could see them struggling to breath and kicking and gasping and drowning and begging their captors to stop, to the point of losing their sanity, you would care a lot more. As far as the law goes, waterboarding is torture. The sheriff in Texas didn't drown anybody and we sure sent him and his deputies up the river. And as far as the "doctors" standing by. As I said before, Nazi's used doctors to carry out their torture. Just because somebody has a medical license doesn't make them good or in their right mind. If they were such good doctors, I wonder why they were hauling bodies out of that place left and right. My stepfather was in Abu Graib and it was hell on Earth.

gringaloca wrote:

Not to mention sexual abuse.. what the heck do you think was going down at Abu Graib? All those things PLUS some.

Link?

gringaloca wrote:

It's obvious that some believe that it's ok to torture people especially if it was a republican they voted for calling the shots.

Gee, you don't sound a bit partisan at all.

gringaloca wrote:

If Obama did this sort of thing, people would be forming the "hunting party" to track him down.

If Obama did this I'd say, "well I'll be darned, he does have a backbone". But I know better.

gringaloca wrote:

My guess is that if your son or daughter was overseas and they were waterboarding them 200 times on tv and you could see them struggling to breath and kicking and gasping and drowning and begging their captors to stop, to the point of losing their sanity, you would care a lot more.

If it were my son or daughter, I'd feel relieved that they weren't being tortured or worse, having their head cut off.

gringaloca wrote:

As far as the law goes, waterboarding is torture. The sheriff in Texas didn't drown anybody and we sure sent him and his deputies up the river.

You lost me here, what exactly are you talking about?

gringaloca wrote:

And as far as the "doctors" standing by. As I said before, Nazi's used doctors to carry out their torture. Just because somebody has a medical license doesn't make them good or in their right mind.

Wow, what a horrible analogy! Quite an apple to oranges comparison there. You're really going to compare our military doctors to those of Nazi Germany conducting diabolical experiments? You have to be kidding me!

gringaloca wrote:

If they were such good doctors, I wonder why they were hauling bodies out of that place left and right. My stepfather was in Abu Graib and it was hell on Earth.

Again, Link? Hearsay isn't going to cut it for me.

Judge Roy Bean wrote:

gringaloca wrote:

Not to mention sexual abuse.. what the heck do you think was going down at Abu Graib? All those things PLUS some.

Link?

gringaloca wrote:

It's obvious that some believe that it's ok to torture people especially if it was a republican they voted for calling the shots.

Gee, you don't sound a bit partisan at all.

gringaloca wrote:

If Obama did this sort of thing, people would be forming the "hunting party" to track him down.

If Obama did this I'd say, "well I'll be darned, he does have a backbone". But I know better.

gringaloca wrote:

My guess is that if your son or daughter was overseas and they were waterboarding them 200 times on tv and you could see them struggling to breath and kicking and gasping and drowning and begging their captors to stop, to the point of losing their sanity, you would care a lot more.

If it were my son or daughter, I'd feel relieved that they weren't being tortured or worse, having their head cut off.

gringaloca wrote:

As far as the law goes, waterboarding is torture. The sheriff in Texas didn't drown anybody and we sure sent him and his deputies up the river.

You lost me here, what exactly are you talking about?

gringaloca wrote:

And as far as the "doctors" standing by. As I said before, Nazi's used doctors to carry out their torture. Just because somebody has a medical license doesn't make them good or in their right mind.

Wow, what a horrible analogy! Quite an apple to oranges comparison there. You're really going to compare our military doctors to those of Nazi Germany conducting diabolical experiments? You have to be kidding me!

gringaloca wrote:

If they were such good doctors, I wonder why they were hauling bodies out of that place left and right. My stepfather was in Abu Graib and it was hell on Earth.

Again, Link? Hearsay isn't going to cut it for me.

OK. It's obvious you haven't been reading all my posts because lots of this has already been answered before. ugh.

1. Regarding sexual abuse at Abu Ghraib. I don't know where you have been but there are soldiers currently serving time for this abuse and I think it's pretty sickening that the higher ups that sat back and let this stuff happen aren't sitting next to them in prison. Many more are currently either being tried for their atrocities or all that happened in Abu Ghraib and other US prisons hasn't come to light *yet*. I feel that we are getting ready to find out a whole lot more about what was going on behind closed doors and it's going to be even more disturbing and embarrassing to our country. The prisoners were forced to masturbate in front of female soliders, they were stripped down naked and piled on top of each other, they sodomized with bottles and other objects, they were ridden around nude by our soldiers, raped, etc. I mean, you did see the pictures, right? A picture is worth a thousand words.

Lawsuit moving forward regarind torture

Torture and Sexual Abuse

Sworn statements from prisoners

How far up does this go?

Graphic Pics of torture and smiling soldiers standing over dead bodies

2. Regarding the comment about partisanship. The people who are defending the torture allegations are people who voted for Bush. That's just the truth. Sorry.

3. You think that torturing people shows that you have a backbone? That's a strange take. It seems pretty cowardly to beat and abuse people who are naked in handcuffs in my opinion.

4. So you would be happy that your child was being waterboarded? Ummm ok. Personally I wouldn't want my child harmed in any way whether that be beaten, threatened or having their "head cut off". Do you have children? I love my children so much just as middle eastern people love their children. Their blood runs red just like ours does.

5. Regarding the Texas sheriff and deputies who were sent to prison for waterboarding their prisoners by the Reagan DOJ. I've already posted about this and provided a link. It's pretty bad when Reagan is considered a liberal by todays republican standards.

6. Regarding the doctors comment. As I have said before. Torture is torture. The definition of diabolical is having the qualities of a devil; devilish; fiendish; outrageously wicked: a diabolic plot. Take a look at the pics above. I would say that those qualify as diabolical. And where were all the wonderful doctors there to help those people? Hmmm. I guess they were eating lunch?

7. What do you need an explanation here for? That Abu Ghraib wasn't hell on Earth or that many detainees died and/or murdered under US custody?

108 dead under US custody in *2005*

Another article about the great medical
care

Some more links


More

Anyone who believes that we didn't torture some people to death has their head stuck in the sand. I just wish I had more time to post more recent links but I've already spent too much time trying to convince people who obviously don't want to be convinced. I just wish that the republicans would show some *backbone* and own some of the wrongs that took place while they were in power. Show some sliver of dignity or something, instead of hiding from it. If they did I would start believing that they had something good in them somewhere and they just went overboard but for now all they are doing is making excuses. That to me shows what cowards the Bush Administration really was.

gringaloca wrote:

OK. It's obvious you haven't been reading all my posts because lots of this has already been answered before. ugh.

Well good Lord, it's a bit hard to read War & Peace in a short time.

gringaloca wrote:

1. Regarding sexual abuse at Abu Ghraib. I don't know where you have been but there are soldiers currently serving time for this abuse and I think it's pretty sickening that the higher ups that sat back and let this stuff happen aren't sitting next to them in prison. Many more are currently either being tried for their atrocities or all that happened in Abu Ghraib and other US prisons hasn't come to light *yet*. I feel that we are getting ready to find out a whole lot more about what was going on behind closed doors and it's going to be even more disturbing and embarrassing to our country. The prisoners were forced to masturbate in front of female soliders, they were stripped down naked and piled on top of each other, they sodomized with bottles and other objects, they were ridden around nude by our soldiers, raped, etc. I mean, you did see the pictures, right? A picture is worth a thousand words.

What I wanted is for you to provide links, not just say there have been abuses. Again, much of what is getting labeled abuse pales in comparison to what happens to our troops when captured. I'm aware there have been abuses and I'm sure they'll pay for what they did. That's also another HUGE difference between us and the enemy. Look, this is nothing new to this country, believe me we have never been the squeaky clean country some think we are. However, we are much, much more humane overall compared to most of the world.
Thanks for the links, I'll read through them when I get the time to sort through all of them.

gringaloca wrote:

2. Regarding the comment about partisanship. The people who are defending the torture allegations are people who voted for Bush. That's just the truth. Sorry.

And the people bashing the country and Bush are the ones that didn't vote for him. I will tell you this though, when it comes to war, I've sided with presidents that I didn't vote for in the past and will continue to do so. I don't play the game many do with this crap. If Obama was alleged to do the same things under the same circumstances, I'd back him.

gringaloca wrote:

3. You think that torturing people shows that you have a backbone? That's a strange take. It seems pretty cowardly to beat and abuse people who are naked in handcuffs in my opinion.

Ummm, NO, that's not what I was saying, but you can interpret it however you like.

gringaloca wrote:

4. So you would be happy that your child was being waterboarded? Ummm ok. Personally I wouldn't want my child harmed in any way whether that be beaten, threatened or having their "head cut off". Do you have children? I love my children so much just as middle eastern people love their children. Their blood runs red just like ours does.

You couldn't of misunderstood my post more. I was saying better to be waterboarded and to live then to have the horrible, despicable things I know goes on else where done to them and then be murdered horribly.
Silly to assume I don't love my children, and rather offensive.
I have to say, those that think it's wonderful to have their children strap bombs to themselves to kill innocent people as many of those middle eastern children do doesn't show me much love.
[quote="gringaloca"]5. Regarding the Texas sheriff and deputies who were sent to prison for waterboarding their prisoners by the Reagan DOJ. I've already posted about this and provided a link. It's pretty bad when Reagan is considered a liberal by todays republican standards.

Quote :

Oh, OK, now I know what you're talking about. Different situation entirely, as you well know. I don't see how you can compare the two.

[quote="gringaloca"]6. Regarding the doctors comment. As I have said before. Torture is torture. The definition of diabolical is having the qualities of a devil; devilish; fiendish; outrageously wicked: a diabolic plot. Take a look at the pics above. I would say that those qualify as diabolical. And where were all the wonderful doctors there to help those people? Hmmm. I guess they were eating lunch?

For YOU, torture is torture, for the rest of us, not so much...

gringaloca wrote:

7. What do you need an explanation here for? That Abu Ghraib wasn't hell on Earth or that many detainees died and/or murdered under US custody?

It isn't just for me, it's for anyone that reads your posts. It helps you detail and substantiate any accusations you make.

gringaloca wrote:

Anyone who believes that we didn't torture some people to death has their head stuck in the sand. I just wish I had more time to post more recent links but I've already spent too much time trying to convince people who obviously don't want to be convinced. I just wish that the republicans would show some *backbone* and own some of the wrongs that took place while they were in power. Show some sliver of dignity or something, instead of hiding from it. If they did I would start believing that they had something good in them somewhere and they just went overboard but for now all they are doing is making excuses. That to me shows what cowards the Bush Administration really was.

I think you're being totally unfair to lump all Republicans into one big group. There are plenty that admit to wrong doings, and please don't pretend that many on the left are above this sort of thing, that's a joke. You are really jaded towards all that lean to the right it seems, this is an example of what I've always believed, too many on the left are extremely intolerant of anyone that won't agree to everything they think or believe. That's always been my major problem with liberals. I respect your opinions and viewpoints, but in all honesty, I don't get the feeling you feel the same. I hope I'm wrong and am just reading too much into your posts.

[quote="Judge Roy Bean]Well good Lord, it's a bit hard to read War & Peace in a short time.

What I wanted is for you to provide links, not just say there have been abuses. Again, much of what is getting labeled abuse pales in comparison to what happens to our troops when captured. I'm aware there have been abuses and I'm sure they'll pay for what they did. That's also another HUGE difference between us and the enemy. Look, this is nothing new to this country, believe me we have never been the squeaky clean country some think we are. However, we are much, much more humane overall compared to most of the world.

Thanks for the links, I'll read through them when I get the time to sort through all of them.

And the people bashing the country and Bush are the ones that didn't vote for him. I will tell you this though, when it comes to war, I've sided with presidents that I didn't vote for in the past and will continue to do so. I don't play the game many do with this crap. If Obama was alleged to do the same things under the same circumstances, I'd back him.

gringaloca wrote:

3. You think that torturing people shows that you have a backbone? That's a strange take. It seems pretty cowardly to beat and abuse people who are naked in handcuffs in my opinion.

Ummm, NO, that's not what I was saying, but you can interpret it however you like.

gringaloca wrote:

4. So you would be happy that your child was being waterboarded? Ummm ok. Personally I wouldn't want my child harmed in any way whether that be beaten, threatened or having their "head cut off". Do you have children? I love my children so much just as middle eastern people love their children. Their blood runs red just like ours does.

You couldn't of misunderstood my post more. I was saying better to be waterboarded and to live then to have the horrible, despicable things I know goes on else where done to them and then be murdered horribly.

Silly to assume I don't love my children, and rather offensive.
I have to say, those that think it's wonderful to have their children strap bombs to themselves to kill innocent people as many of those middle eastern children do doesn't show me much love.

[quote="gringaloca"]5. Regarding the Texas sheriff and deputies who were sent to prison for waterboarding their prisoners by the Reagan DOJ. I've already posted about this and provided a link. It's pretty bad when Reagan is considered a liberal by todays republican standards.

Quote :

Oh, OK, now I know what you're talking about. Different situation entirely, as you well know. I don't see how you can compare the two.

gringaloca wrote:

6. Regarding the doctors comment. As I have said before. Torture is torture. The definition of diabolical is having the qualities of a devil; devilish; fiendish; outrageously wicked: a diabolic plot. Take a look at the pics above. I would say that those qualify as diabolical. And where were all the wonderful doctors there to help those people? Hmmm. I guess they were eating lunch?

For YOU, torture is torture, for the rest of us, not so much...

gringaloca wrote:

7. What do you need an explanation here for? That Abu Ghraib wasn't hell on Earth or that many detainees died and/or murdered under US custody?

It isn't just for me, it's for anyone that reads your posts. It helps you detail and substantiate any accusations you make.

I think you're being totally unfair to lump all Republicans into one big group. There are plenty that admit to wrong doings, and please don't pretend that many on the left are above this sort of thing, that's a joke. You are really jaded towards all that lean to the right it seems, this is an example of what I've always believed, too many on the left are extremely intolerant of anyone that won't agree to everything they think or believe. That's always been my major problem with liberals. I respect your opinions and viewpoints, but in all honesty, I don't get the feeling you feel the same. I hope I'm wrong and am just reading too much into your posts.

Sorry if my responses were too long for you to bother to read. I guess that it's a waste of my time to go through the trouble of providing my side of the argument if you aren't going to read it anyway. If you aren't going to read all the links I provided and attempt to view things from a different point of view and are happy with remaining close minded, what am I typing "war and peace" for? I provided the information you requested by posting links. I did all that you asked. So far I haven't seen any big proof from you to argue against what I have said. It's been your opinion, not actual facts. Big difference.

And you said that for me torture is torture and for the rest of you, not so much. That's pretty bold of you to speak for the rest of America, isn't it? I hate to tell you but the majority of Americans actually agree with my side. That's why Obama is currently our president THANK GOD.

And I did substantiate all of your posts with links and information from all sorts of news sources, not just "liberal rags" so I don't know why you keep acting like I didn't. I posted several links.

And I think it's funny how you think that waterboarding prisoners in Texas and waterboarding prisoners in Cuba are two totally different things.

And as far as me being jaded to the left. Have you read your own comments? That's like calling the pot calling the kettle black. You have not budged one bit from your stance since this conversation started nor did you even take the time to read what all I had to say to try to prove my side. That proves to me that you aren't going to change your mind no matter what I say so I won't waste my time further. I took the time to read all that you said and thought about it and took your views into consideration.

The problem is, someone is wrong in this whole situation but no matter what kind of proof is shown, it makes no difference. That's what is wrong with this country right now. People are so stubborn and stuck in their ways, they would rather watch this country go down in flames then support President Obama. Just like Rush Limbaugh saying that he is just saying what all republicans are thinking and are too chicken to say out loud.... You want him to fail. Period. And I think that's sad. I love my country more than I love a party.

I'm done trying to convince you otherwise. And sorry I offended you about your children. Just so you know I found your pro-torture posts offensive since the subject is rather personal to me so we're even. Take care.

Let's all take a deep breath and cool off just a second. Remember that many of us are very passionate people when it comes to politics. Passion can sometimes be mistaken for disdain.

Let's keep the dialogue and information flowing. This has been one of our most popular threads so far in the short history of the Outpost Saloon!

A free round for all!

Gringa, you need to settle down a bit and cool off. You also need to realize that no one has to go along with what you think. I certainly don't expect to change your mind nor do I think you have to agree with me.
My comment about War & Peace was meant as humor, but you chose to take it as an insult. You're taking all of this too personal and need to understand that I'm not attacking you just because I disagree with you.
As for the rest, I'm not going to get into a spitting match you over who's right and who's wrong. I've told you I respect your opinion, that should suffice.
Yes, the comment about not loving my kids was a bit offensive, but I'll live. I'm sure that you don't really think that of me, so I'm really not worried about it.
If the subject of waterboarding is too close to your heart for comfort, I understand, so perhaps the two of us should stop debating this particular subject and move on to another topic.
I think you're intelligent and passionate and I certainly enjoy reading your posts, minus that last one. Let's not let politics place a barrier between us and enjoy a little spirited debate instead.

I think we've drained the tank on this topic, and we're not getting anywhere. Probably a good time to drop back and regroup for the next battle...on another topic.

I know everyone is passionate about politics in general, and this subject in particular, but we need to debate calmly and rationally. Remember our most important rule here at the saloon...don't be a jackass!