Waterboarding

What's your opinion of it?
I myself have zero problem with it, but I would like to hear from all of you on the subject. If you disagree with it, what are your main reasons?

I personally feel it violates the tenets of liberalism this country was founded upon, is currently illegal, and our subversion of the former is the most effective tactic in the arsenal of our enemies.

Ja'far wrote:

I personally feel it violates the tenets of liberalism this country was founded upon, is currently illegal, and our subversion of the former is the most effective tactic in the arsenal of our enemies.

Really? Do you consider it torture? I'm not trying to be facetious, I ask because I don't. I mean, the way I see it, it's noting more than a tool to get info and they aren't being physically harmed.

I have to defer to the opinion of former POWs, such as John McCain, who insist that this treatment is inhumane.

I am 100% in favor of it and any other method that gets info from our sworn enemys that will help protect us. I look at it like this, I have 0 problem with it when their idea of interragation and fairness to pow's is be heading an american and putting it on t.v.! I have 0 tolerance for all of these do goody,goody liberals that think we are the ones in the wrong. I mean we are dealing with people that fly planes into building! There imo is not a lot of sit down and lets talk that works with that kind of mind set.

Besides and on a lighter note, I heard comedian Dennis Miller tonight say that he figured that these thugs had not had a bath in so long that at best it would chisle some dirt and scum off of them

I think it totally violates everything this country stands for. Before we were seen as the "good guys", now we have resorted to torturing people like the very people we fought so hard to stop in the past. It's sickening and for those of you who are Christians, it is wrong in every way. Besides, there is no proof that vital information was gathered from such tactics and even if they were, it's not worth selling our souls over. We are better than that and I hope that the people who made the orders to carry it all out are thrown in prison for war crimes instead of sending the morons at the bottom to prison as scapegoats. It's simply not fair because they were following orders and judging from the pictures they were not very intelligent. They were just doing their job. Rumsfeld told them to torture and they did it. Now they are behind bars when he should be. And regarding the comment above about people getting a free bath. Dear God. We are not living in Hitler's Germany, are we? It frightens me that Americans are even saying things like that. There is nothing goody goody about human rights. Allowing "advanced interrogation techniques" is a slippery slope for any country. Not everyone in those prisons were even charged with anything but it's ok to torture them? They didn't have anything to do with flying planes into any buildings. And the people chopping the heads off of Americans on TV are exactly what we don't want to be. Stooping to their level is going to solve what exactly? Nothing except create MORE people out there to hate us for torturing their fathers, mothers, sons and daughters. Especially if the people who were being tortured were INNOCENT. Makes me want to puke even thinking about it. I wonder if McCain thought his torture was ok and that goody goodies should shut up about it because torture is ok when you need revenge. Good grief.

Listen to what this Brig. General has to say about what happened.

I personally believe what these terrorist thugs did to us totally violates everything this country stands for. Everyone has their own opinion and I can respect that, it is everyones right. I just strongly disagree with some of, as I had stated earlier, all of these what I call far left do gooder's that seem to worry about our enemies rights or concerns more than our own peoples rights. I frankly couldn't care less about the Taliban, Bin Ladens band of thugs or any of these other terrorist that want o destroy our way of life. I also believe that being a Christian does not mean that one is supposed to let someone, especially other countries radical terroist push their way of life on me or my country and what it was built on. I guess what I am saying in a nut shell is that this is war, no matter if someone wants to change the name of it to make in sound better that does not change the fact that we are at war. I am for anything that protects us and feel that although some say there wasn't that very valuble information was gained through those methods. I am sure that those methods (waterboarding) weren't the first thing that we tried to get info from our enemy. I also know that since that terrible day (9-11) that our country has not ben under attack on our soil and can't help but believe that there were several/countless attempts and plans that were found out using some of these tatics.
I believe that it is an absolute travesty that there are some of our lawmakers, that were originally advised about using these tatics (and btw said nothing at the time) are now wanting to prosecute the very people that are keeping us free using the ideas/methods that they themselves approved of (or said nothing at the time). These same lawmakers are now wanting to reveal secrets and tatics used to gain info from oue enemy. This kind of thinking makes me wonder just how long the rest of us can count on being free.
I just reflect and think that our brave men and women of the military were/are fighting for our very right to voice opinions, our rights to post opinons on boards such as thias one. There are places that we would be put to death for voicing an opinion and I certainly don't want to become one of them.

I apologize for going on and as I said, everyone is entitled to their opinion and I do respect that and have no poroblem with it and was just voicing my opinion as well.

gringaloca wrote:

I think it totally violates everything this country stands for. Before we were seen as the "good guys", now we have resorted to torturing people like the very people we fought so hard to stop in the past. It's sickening and for those of you who are Christians, it is wrong in every way. Besides, there is no proof that vital information was gathered from such tactics and even if they were, it's not worth selling our souls over. We are better than that and I hope that the people who made the orders to carry it all out are thrown in prison for war crimes instead of sending the morons at the bottom to prison as scapegoats. It's simply not fair because they were following orders and judging from the pictures they were not very intelligent. They were just doing their job. Rumsfeld told them to torture and they did it. Now they are behind bars when he should be. And regarding the comment above about people getting a free bath. Dear God. We are not living in Hitler's Germany, are we? It frightens me that Americans are even saying things like that. There is nothing goody goody about human rights. Allowing "advanced interrogation techniques" is a slippery slope for any country. Not everyone in those prisons were even charged with anything but it's ok to torture them? They didn't have anything to do with flying planes into any buildings. And the people chopping the heads off of Americans on TV are exactly what we don't want to be. Stooping to their level is going to solve what exactly? Nothing except create MORE people out there to hate us for torturing their fathers, mothers, sons and daughters. Especially if the people who were being tortured were INNOCENT. Makes me want to puke even thinking about it. I wonder if McCain thought his torture was ok and that goody goodies should shut up about it because torture is ok when you need revenge. Good grief.

Listen to what this Brig. General has to say about what happened.

I don't agree that it violates anything, nor do I believe it to be torture. You want to see torture you look at what the enemy is doing , that's torture. Do you believe we torture our own soldiers? After all, many of them undergo waterboarding as training. I can't help but laugh when I hear people compare waderboarding to breaking bones, electrocution, severe beatings, loping off peoples heads and on and on. It's no wonder the terrorists think we're weak. In a sense, they're right, many Americans don't have the stomach to take the fight to the terrorists. We are becoming a shell of what we once were.
For those of you that think we had some kind of squeaky clean record in the past with how we treated prisoners during war, you have the wrong impression of our past.
The only thing I can tell you is that you can't "nice" people into submission. You have to do what it takes to save lives and win. It's called war for a reason.

If you don't think that being water boarded 166 times in one month and not being allowed to sleep during that time is torture, I don't know what planet you are from. Not to mention that we have electrocuted, sexually abused, beat, etc. on these people. We do have a thing in this country called innocent until proven guilty. Those people weren't even given that luxury. I suggest that all of these people who don't think these methods are torture should sign up and have it done to them or their children and see what they have to say when it's all over. That is, if you survive. It's not a sign of being weak that we don't do these things, it shows the world that we are better than our enemies. We have set the standard for the rest of the world and they have always looked to us because we were above the hate and the torture. And now that we are finding out that a lot of this was done to get people to admit that Iraq and 9-11 were connected and had NOTHING to do with keeping us safe, it should finally open some eyes. Oh well, at least Dick Cheney is suddenly in the mood to talk after eight years of living in his secret bunker. He better hurry up and get those memos released in time for his book. The fact remains that Japanese were put to death for waterboarding Americans because when it's done to us it is considered TORTURE and torture is illegal. Plain and simple. And no, I certainly don't believe that we were perfect in the past but two wrongs don't make a right. Torturing people does not make us safer. It just creates more people that want to fly planes into our buildings.

Mongo wrote:

Do you believe we torture our own soldiers? After all, many of them undergo waterboarding as training. I can't help but laugh when I hear people compare waderboarding to breaking bones, electrocution, severe beatings, loping off peoples heads and on and on. It's no wonder the terrorists think we're weak.

Good point. I'm not hearing any answer to this so far. As for waterboarding itself - obviously it isn't "torture." It may be a discomfort, but to say it rises to the level of torture is quite a stretch of the imagination.

As for anything else that may have been done to the prisoners, in the extremely vast majority of cases, nothing more was done to them than was absolutely necessary to protect our country. To suggest otherwise, or come up with silly accusations of nefarious political motives, serves only to disgrace our fighting men and women and to embolden our enemies...and they are still out there.

I'll feel bad for our terrorist prisoners when they switch their tactics to waterboarding thousands of people to death in office buildings and making people on airplanes die from lack of sleep.

This clip is interesting. It shows a man voluntarily being waterboarded to see what it's like (he bet he could last 15 seconds).
It's not hard to watch so don't worry, you're not going to see something graphic or horrific to watch. But it's interesting because he explains what he went through which is what everyone goes through physically and psychologically when being waterboarded. And some people say it isn't torture.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/20/playboy-journo-bets-he-ca_n_189280.html

Regardless of your personal belief about torture (and it is wrong and does not work), there is a little thing called the Geneva Convention., which prohibits torture or any violence that harms the person. We are not barbarians and we should not act like them either. Just because we can torture, doesn't mean we should.

Doc Holiday wrote:

As for waterboarding itself - obviously it isn't "torture." It may be a discomfort, but to say it rises to the level of torture is quite a stretch of the imagination.

Not everyone, including former POW John McCain would agree with you. Doesn't his opinion count for anything?

Annie Oakley wrote:

Doc Holiday wrote:

As for waterboarding itself - obviously it isn't "torture." It may be a discomfort, but to say it rises to the level of torture is quite a stretch of the imagination.

Not everyone, including former POW John McCain would agree with you. Doesn't his opinion count for anything?

Exactly, he agrees that it's torture. And if it's not so bad, why were soldiers that did it to us put to death for torture? Did we stop them and say, hey stop, it wasn't that bad. No we didn't. And when these tactics are being used to the extreme like the man who was water boarded over 150 times in one month, you can not tell me that isn't torture. And what is interesting is that he told them everything he knew before the water boarding even began. No further information came from it.

And as far as disgracing our men and women in the armed forces for political gain. Come on people. It happened. The report that was released yesterday proves that the people doing the torturing were instructed to get that connection between Iraq and 9-11. That was one of their main priorities. And apparently it's not a fantasy because John McCain signed off on the report himself and agrees with it. It's sickening that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the other criminals let soldiers take the fall for their made up war and for following their orders. Talk about disgraceful. My step-father was held hostage by Saddam Hussein and he even told me that we were in the wrong over there. He was held in a tiny cell and put through God knows what and he still believed that America was GOOD and above torturing people.

Waterboarding is indeed torture. And it's proven torture does not work. The tortured person will tell you lies that you want to hear, thus misleading the torturer.

It is disturbing to see citizens of our country rah-rah in support of torture. It's also disturbing to see citizens deny waterboarding is torture. What has happened to people's sense of decency? It got lost the last 8 years, as the Bush admin brainwashed its followers into believing torture is OK and waterboarding is no big deal.

I'm glad Obama has bumped the torture issue to the Attorney General. It keeps him less involved in it, and the Attorney General will hopefully pursue the issue and prosecute those that instructed and approved of torture. Why do you think Cheney is blathering about the Obama administration making us "unsafe"? He's scared sh*tless because he knows he's guilty. It would do my heart good to see him, Bush, and the other right-wing fundamentalist whackos go to prison. That is where they belong.

BTW those that believe Bush walks on water (no pun intended) because we haven't been hit since 9/11/01 are part of the brainwashed bunch that can't think for themselves. It's a bunch of hoo-ha.

Venus03 wrote:

This clip is interesting. It shows a man voluntarily being waterboarded to see what it's like (he bet he could last 15 seconds).
It's not hard to watch so don't worry, you're not going to see something graphic or horrific to watch. But it's interesting because he explains what he went through which is what everyone goes through physically and psychologically when being waterboarded. And some people say it isn't torture.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/20/playboy-journo-bets-he-ca_n_189280.html

Regardless of your personal belief about torture (and it is wrong and does not work), there is a little thing called the Geneva Convention., which prohibits torture or any violence that harms the person. We are not barbarians and we should not act like them either. Just because we can torture, doesn't mean we should.

We all know the Huffington Post isn't exactly a reliable source for good fair reporting, it's an extreme liberal rag in fact.
You do realize that someone engaging in battle or on a battle field without a uniform isn't included under the Geneva Convention, right?

Annie Oakley wrote:

Doc Holiday wrote:

As for waterboarding itself - obviously it isn't "torture." It may be a discomfort, but to say it rises to the level of torture is quite a stretch of the imagination.

Not everyone, including former POW John McCain would agree with you. Doesn't his opinion count for anything?

He's a politician, it's not popular to agree with what Doc said, even though he's spot on. Who's surprised by that? I'd be willing that if he was honest about it, rather than giving a politicians opinion of it, he'd tell you otherwise.

Mongo wrote:

Annie Oakley wrote:

Doc Holiday wrote:

As for waterboarding itself - obviously it isn't "torture." It may be a discomfort, but to say it rises to the level of torture is quite a stretch of the imagination.

Not everyone, including former POW John McCain would agree with you. Doesn't his opinion count for anything?

He's a politician, it's not popular to agree with what Doc said, even though he's spot on. Who's surprised by that? I'd be willing that if he was honest about it, rather than giving a politicians opinion of it, he'd tell you otherwise.

Here's what Mr. McCain has to say for himself. I think he is a veteran first, politician second, right? He isn't saying this stuff for favor with anyone. He's too old to care about who he impresses at this point and is not running for president again. This is just how the man feels and guess what? I agree with him. Apparently water boarding isn't that effective if they have to do it 180 something times. Sounds like they were going the Chinese route and just hoping to make them say whatever fit what they needed.

Watch this.

John McCain on waterboarding and the effectiveness of torture




Another waterboarding video

I don't agree that it violates anything, nor do I believe it to be torture. You want to see torture you look at what the enemy is doing , that's torture. Do you believe we torture our own soldiers? After all, many of them undergo waterboarding as training. I can't help but laugh when I hear people compare waderboarding to breaking bones, electrocution, severe beatings, loping off peoples heads and on and on. It's no wonder the terrorists think we're weak. In a sense, they're right, many Americans don't have the stomach to take the fight to the terrorists. We are becoming a shell of what we once were. For those of you that think we had some kind of squeaky clean record in the past with how we treated prisoners during war, you have the wrong impression of our past.
The only thing I can tell you is that you can't "nice" people into submission. You have to do what it takes to save lives and win. It's called war for a reason.[/quote]

Very good post here! I compley agree. I guess that president Obama ended the war on terror, he just changed the name of it. That will fix everything now. That way of thinking is imo playing directly into our enemies hands. They love it, Osama himself is probably still laughing.

gringaloca wrote:

I think it totally violates everything this country stands for. Before we were seen as the "good guys", now we have resorted to torturing people like the very people we fought so hard to stop in the past. It's sickening and for those of you who are Christians, it is wrong in every way. Besides, there is no proof that vital information was gathered from such tactics and even if they were, it's not worth selling our souls over. We are better than that and I hope that the people who made the orders to carry it all out are thrown in prison for war crimes instead of sending the morons at the bottom to prison as scapegoats. It's simply not fair because they were following orders and judging from the pictures they were not very intelligent. They were just doing their job. Rumsfeld told them to torture and they did it. Now they are behind bars when he should be. And regarding the comment above about people getting a free bath. Dear God. We are not living in Hitler's Germany, are we? It frightens me that Americans are even saying things like that. There is nothing goody goody about human rights. Allowing "advanced interrogation techniques" is a slippery slope for any country. Not everyone in those prisons were even charged with anything but it's ok to torture them? They didn't have anything to do with flying planes into any buildings. And the people chopping the heads off of Americans on TV are exactly what we don't want to be. Stooping to their level is going to solve what exactly? Nothing except create MORE people out there to hate us for torturing their fathers, mothers, sons and daughters. Especially if the people who were being tortured were INNOCENT. Makes me want to puke even thinking about it. I wonder if McCain thought his torture was ok and that goody goodies should shut up about it because torture is ok when you need revenge. Good grief.
Listen to what this Brig. General has to say about what happened.

Juist a few opinions on some of your comments........

1. it does not violate one thing about what this country stands for. This country stands for keeping its people free from these radical terrorist and imo to use the methods that were used is perfectly alright.
2. About the comment on Christians, Christians have been attacked an persecuted fo 2000 years, That is not going to change and the comment by you doesn't bother me, just imo another example of bashing Christians. As for no vital information gained, I heard members of Presidents Obama's own cabinet said that very valuble information was gained using these methods and it that information directly led to us de railing an attack on the west coast (L.A.) amoung others.
3. Just another thought...as for "hoping that ones responsible should be thrown in prison", the act of you/any one of us merely voicing our opinions in one of these other countries would be a death sentence. I believe that if more people thought of that and what it could be then they would approve of our military using thee so called "terrible, barbaric" tactics to gain information.
4. As for the Hitler's Germany comment, no we are not.......yet . Sometimes I wonder with this type thinking how long it will be before we are.
5, I feel pretty confident that if you (or any of us) could ask McCain what he thought about our military using the interogation tatics that we did that he would approve of anything to gain valuble information. I also believe that he would have a few choice words for anyone that questioned his beliefs and dedication to our military. JMO

What I am saying is that this is war, our men and women of the military are laying it all out on the line every day for our freedoms and way of life. Freedom is not free! My main gripe with alot of this now is that these same tactics used were agreed upon, paid for and voted on by some of the same lawmakers (both dems and g.o.p.) that are wanting to throw people under the bus for it now, that fact imo is what is sickining. Certainly not the tactics used.
We could go on and on and I am not changing my mind as I feel sure that you aren't going to change yours either so I won't post anymore on it. I will just use the analogy that you used in one of your comments about my post and leave it at that........Good Grief!

Juist a few opinions on some of your comments........

1. it does not violate one thing about what this country stands for. This country stands for keeping its people free from these radical terrorist and imo to use the methods that were used is perfectly alright.
2. About the comment on Christians, Christians have been attacked an persecuted fo 2000 years, That is not going to change and the comment by you doesn't bother me, just imo another example of bashing Christians. As for no vital information gained, I heard members of Presidents Obama's own cabinet said that very valuble information was gained using these methods and it that information directly led to us de railing an attack on the west coast (L.A.) amoung others.
3. Just another thought...as for "hoping that ones responsible should be thrown in prison", the act of you/any one of us merely voicing our opinions in one of these other countries would be a death sentence. I believe that if more people thought of that and what it could be then they would approve of our military using thee so called "terrible, barbaric" tactics to gain information.
4. As for the Hitler's Germany comment, no we are not.......yet . Sometimes I wonder with this type thinking how long it will be before we are.
5, I feel pretty confident that if you (or any of us) could ask McCain what he thought about our military using the interogation tatics that we did that he would approve of anything to gain valuble information. I also believe that he would have a few choice words for anyone that questioned his beliefs and dedication to our military. JMO

What I am saying is that this is war, our men and women of the military are laying it all out on the line every day for our freedoms and way of life. Freedom is not free! My main gripe with alot of this now is that these same tactics used were agreed upon, paid for and voted on by some of the same lawmakers (both dems and g.o.p.) that are wanting to throw people under the bus for it now, that fact imo is what is sickining. Certainly not the tactics used.
We could go on and on and I am not changing my mind as I feel sure that you aren't going to change yours either so I won't post anymore on it. I will just use the analogy that you used in one of your comments about my post and leave it at that........Good Grief![/quote]


Well, I feel that the point is being lost. The fact is we are America and we are supposed to stand for what is good and decent in this world. I believe that some people are so obsessed with their party they would defend their actions no matter what they did. It won't be the first time in history that's happened. What Bush et al did was wrong. Torture is wrong. PERIOD.
I think ole Shep says it best... lol

Oh and don't watch this if you can't handle some bad words. ha ha

Click here to see what Shepherd from Fox News thinks about torture.

Nuff said. Go get him Shep. Hope you didn't lose your job but if you did, at least you went out defending what was right.

PS McCain made it pretty clear what he thought of the matter in the clip above and he signed off on the report condemning it. Are you calling him a liar now? The man was tortured himself. He isn't a big huge fan of it unless he loved being a POW. This country is pretty screwed up if we've sank to these sorta lows. And just so you know, the info about the attack on California was obtained before they starting using waterboarding or other harsh tactics. A few months before actually.

gringaloca wrote:

And as far as disgracing our men and women in the armed forces for political gain. Come on people. It happened. The report that was released yesterday proves that the people doing the torturing were instructed to get that connection between Iraq and 9-11. That was one of their main priorities. And apparently it's not a fantasy because John McCain signed off on the report himself and agrees with it. It's sickening that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the other criminals let soldiers take the fall for their made up war and for following their orders.

It's just kind of sad really, that someone would buy into that nonsense.

Doc Holiday wrote:

It's just kind of sad really, that someone would buy into that nonsense.

You aren't exactly refuting it.

I thought I would post John McCain's words here, since I agree with him and he is a much more effective articulator of his opinion:

Quote :

Our enemies did not adhere to the Geneva Convention. Many of my comrades were subjected to very cruel, very inhumane, and degrading treatment, a few of them even unto death. But every single one of us knew and took great strength from the belief that we were different from our enemies, that we were better than them, that if the roles were reversed, we would not disgrace ourselves by committing or countenancing such mistreatment of them. That faith was indispensable not only to our survival but to our attempts to return home with honor. Many of the men I served with would have preferred death to such dishonor.

The enemies we fight today hold such liberal notions in contempt as they hold in contempt the international conventions that enshrine them, such as the Geneva Conventions and the Treaty on Torture. I know that. But we are better than them, and we are stronger for our faith, and we will prevail.

I submit to my colleagues that it is indispensable to our success in this war that our service men and women know that in the discharge of their dangerous responsibilities to their country they are never expected to forget that they are Americans and the valiant defenders of a sacred idea of how nations should govern their own affairs and their relations with others, even our enemies.

Doc Holiday wrote:

gringaloca wrote:

And as far as disgracing our men and women in the armed forces for political gain. Come on people. It happened. The report that was released yesterday proves that the people doing the torturing were instructed to get that connection between Iraq and 9-11. That was one of their main priorities. And apparently it's not a fantasy because John McCain signed off on the report himself and agrees with it. It's sickening that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the other criminals let soldiers take the fall for their made up war and for following their orders.

It's just kind of sad really, that someone would buy into that nonsense.

Which part exactly? Have you heard the testimony of Major Charles Bernie (sp?)? He states in his testimony that they were "focused on finding a link between 9-11 and Iraq and we were not being successful in establishing that link. The more frustrated people got about not being about to establish this link, the more pressure there was to resort to measures that would bring more immediate results."

Bush wanted that war. And 9-11 gave that war to him on a silver platter because we were all running around scared to death, ready to kill anyone to save our own butts. Cool heads have to prevail when times get bad like that and there were no cool heads in power during that time. Read the Levin report that McCain signed off on. It's all there. I don't see what's so hard to believe about it actually. Bush and his bunch certainly didn't walk on water.

And regarding the people who think we weren't doing anything wrong to these people and how it was all doctor supervised and peachy keen. Well, all the Nazi experiments were doctor supervised. Doesn't make it right. There are some sick puppies out there who are willing to do horrible things to people in the name of "freedom".

And about the comment that we train our own soldiers and waterboard them, etc. and that they survived it. Did they do it to them 150 plus times in a month? Ummm no. And do you realize why they train our soldiers for that? It's so they can be prepared for it in case they are taken by our enemies like Communist China whom we say is in violation of the Geneva Conventions. That is why we are trained to resist it. Not so we can feel what we are putting our own prisoners through.

And last but not least, as I said before, we have put people to death in the past for waterboarding our soldiers (for example General Yamashita). We have even put our OWN people to death for doing it during the Spanish American war. In 1983 Reagan's DOJ prosecuted a Texas sheriff and his deputies for waterboarding prisoners. He and his deputies were thrown in prison for it. Just because 9-11 happened doesn't make it suddenly ok to do whatever we want. I believe that if Osama Bin Laden has been able to make such a horrible change in the US that we now consider torture and abuse morally correct, he did win to a small degree. Very sad. Well, he didn't take away my common decency and thank God I'm not alone. Torture is wrong and illegal and according to our own courts from the past, waterboarding is torture. That definition didn't change after 2001.



Texas Sheriff Prosecuted by Reagan's DOJ for waterboarding

I hope they send Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney, and the rest up the river and set an example of them. Somebody needs to. Thank God we weren't attacked again while they were in power. No telling what they would have justified next. And it will be horrible if we are attacked on President Obama's watch but if we are, it won't be because we were safer with Bush. It's sickening but you can tell Cheney and other republicans actually seem to be hoping for an attack so they can say I told you so. Talk about disgraceful. Oh well, this subject is like
Torture is illegal and wrong. Period.

Ja'far wrote:

Doc Holiday wrote:

It's just kind of sad really, that someone would buy into that nonsense.

You aren't exactly refuting it.

I thought I would post John McCain's words here, since I agree with him and he is a much more effective articulator of his opinion:

Quote :

Our enemies did not adhere to the Geneva Convention. Many of my comrades were subjected to very cruel, very inhumane, and degrading treatment, a few of them even unto death. But every single one of us knew and took great strength from the belief that we were different from our enemies, that we were better than them, that if the roles were reversed, we would not disgrace ourselves by committing or countenancing such mistreatment of them. That faith was indispensable not only to our survival but to our attempts to return home with honor. Many of the men I served with would have preferred death to such dishonor.

The enemies we fight today hold such liberal notions in contempt as they hold in contempt the international conventions that enshrine them, such as the Geneva Conventions and the Treaty on Torture. I know that. But we are better than them, and we are stronger for our faith, and we will prevail.

I submit to my colleagues that it is indispensable to our success in this war that our service men and women know that in the discharge of their dangerous responsibilities to their country they are never expected to forget that they are Americans and the valiant defenders of a sacred idea of how nations should govern their own affairs and their relations with others, even our enemies.

Thank you Ja'Far and thank you John McCain for saying that. Beautifully put.