Torture Debate on Fox and friends. hee hee

I would love it if just one you 9/11 conspiracy proponents would come up with just one factual, provable shred of evidence that the Bush administration had anything to do with it..

gringaloca wrote:

Lucas McCain wrote:

Again ,,, Water boarding is not physical torture.. It is a very extreme method but nobody died and there is no lasting physical damages like severed limbs and cut out tongues.. Again,,, No one on the left had a problem with this issue until after the elections... Why no uproar until now???

Ummm, yes, people did die. Sorry but you are wrong on that one sir.

Who died... Link??

gringaloca wrote:

And in response to all of this...I will only say what I have said a million times before but people seem to ignore it....

We have put people to death for waterboarding us. It is considered a war crime and illegal when it is done to us. Just because Dick came up with another name for it (enhanced blah blah BS), it's still torture and was considered torture and ILLEGAL at the time we did it. There was no important information gained from the tactic and when you using it you could get people to say that they are Elvis Presley if you did it long enough. It's useless. And Annie made a good point. WWJD? It sure seems that a lot of so called Christians put aside their Christian beliefs and what Jesus taught us when they are feeling scared. You can not argue that it's perfectly legal for the US to waterboard people but it's ok for us to assassinate them if they do it to us. Not only is that unethical, it is totally conceited and ignorant.

Who have "we" put to death??? Link?

gringaloca wrote:

And in response to all of this...I will only say what I have said a million times before but people seem to ignore it....

We have put people to death for waterboarding us. It is considered a war crime and illegal when it is done to us. Just because Dick came up with another name for it (enhanced blah blah BS), it's still torture and was considered torture and ILLEGAL at the time we did it. There was no important information gained from the tactic and when you using it you could get people to say that they are Elvis Presley if you did it long enough. It's useless. And Annie made a good point. WWJD? It sure seems that a lot of so called Christians put aside their Christian beliefs and what Jesus taught us when they are feeling scared. You can not argue that it's perfectly legal for the US to waterboard people but it's ok for us to assassinate them if they do it to us. Not only is that unethical, it is totally conceited and ignorant.

Since we are no longer a Christan nation according to Obama that should not be an issue.. But I still wonder what Jesus would do about lets say abortion.. Mothers murdering their innocent babies...Yes WWJD????

Yes....what would Jesus do about abortion? It's not the topic, but maybe if we change the subject then no one will notice that we can't really answer the original question in such a way to support our own view point? Oh well, I'll bite. Perhaps gringaloca won't mind the switch.

Would He make it illegal in all circumstances?

Would He use it as a carrot to get people to vote for Him?

Would He, instead, become part of the lives of the women who are making such a decision, being a positive influence, so that they don't make the decision to have an abortion? Would He realize that making abortions illegal wouldn't keep them from happening? Would He, instead, realize that the best way to keep them from happening has nothing to do with party platforms and Supreme Court decisions?

Lucas McCain wrote:

I would love it if just one you 9/11 conspiracy proponents would come up with just one factual, provable shred of evidence that the Bush administration had anything to do with it..

Who are you speaking to in the bolded?

Annie Oakley wrote:

Yes....what would Jesus do about abortion? It's not the topic, but maybe if we change the subject then no one will notice that we can't really answer the original question in such a way to support our own view point? Oh well, I'll bite. Perhaps gringaloca won't mind the switch.

Would He make it illegal in all circumstances?

Would He use it as a carrot to get people to vote for Him?

Would He, instead, become part of the lives of the women who are making such a decision, being a positive influence, so that they don't make the decision to have an abortion? Would He realize that making abortions illegal wouldn't keep them from happening? Would He, instead, realize that the best way to keep them from happening has nothing to do with party platforms and Supreme Court decisions?

All I can really do is wonder Annie.. Not qualified to speak for The Man...

Lucas McCain wrote:

gringaloca wrote:

And in response to all of this...I will only say what I have said a million times before but people seem to ignore it....

We have put people to death for waterboarding us. It is considered a war crime and illegal when it is done to us. Just because Dick came up with another name for it (enhanced blah blah BS), it's still torture and was considered torture and ILLEGAL at the time we did it. There was no important information gained from the tactic and when you using it you could get people to say that they are Elvis Presley if you did it long enough. It's useless. And Annie made a good point. WWJD? It sure seems that a lot of so called Christians put aside their Christian beliefs and what Jesus taught us when they are feeling scared. You can not argue that it's perfectly legal for the US to waterboard people but it's ok for us to assassinate them if they do it to us. Not only is that unethical, it is totally conceited and ignorant.

Who have "we" put to death??? Link?

Good Lord. How many times do I have to provide the same links. I provided the links for how many died and what from, I posted the link about how we assassinated people for waterboarding our soldiers, etc. I get tired of repeating myself. If people would actually read what I have to say and read the sources I provide you would already know. That just shows me that no matter what I say and no matter what proof I provide, you aren't even looking at it. Am I just wasting my time?

[quote="gringaloca"]

Lucas McCain wrote:

Annie Oakley wrote:

Yes....what would Jesus do about abortion? It's not the topic, but maybe if we change the subject then no one will notice that we can't really answer the original question in such a way to support our own view point? Oh well, I'll bite. Perhaps gringaloca won't mind the switch.

Would He make it illegal in all circumstances?

Would He use it as a carrot to get people to vote for Him?

Would He, instead, become part of the lives of the women who are making such a decision, being a positive influence, so that they don't make the decision to have an abortion? Would He realize that making abortions illegal wouldn't keep them from happening? Would He, instead, realize that the best way to keep them from happening has nothing to do with party platforms and Supreme Court decisions?

All I can really do is wonder Annie.. Not qualified to speak for The Man...

Well, I know one thing that the "man" wouldn't do and that is torture people. Period. Just because we aren't a Christian nation doesn't mean we don't have ethics and morals. And the problem here is that most of the people who are all of the sudden pro-torture are Christians. I doubt he'll be passing out free passes at the pearly gates for republicans or anyone else who thinks it's ok to waterboard people. And during biblical times women took certain herbs to terminate pregnancies. I wonder if "pro-life" people think that a woman should be forced to give birth to a child that was conceived from incest? And something else I find pretty hypocritical is that these so called "pro-life" people have no problem dropping bombs on cities full of babies and children. I doubt Jesus would find that perfectly ok either.

gringaloca wrote:

Well, I know one thing that the "man" wouldn't do and that is torture people. Period. Just because we aren't a Christian nation doesn't mean we don't have ethics and morals. And the problem here is that most of the people who are all of the sudden pro-torture are Christians. I doubt he'll be passing out free passes at the pearly gates for republicans or anyone else who thinks it's ok to waterboard people. And during biblical times women took certain herbs to terminate pregnancies. I wonder if "pro-life" people think that a woman should be forced to give birth to a child that was conceived from incest? And something else I find pretty hypocritical is that these so called "pro-life" people have no problem dropping bombs on cities full of babies and children. I doubt Jesus would find that perfectly ok either.

Are you implying that God didn't instruct his people to kill entire populations of people? Are you implying that God never instructed his people to inflict pain and despair upon their enemies? Key word "enemies".

Completely ridiculous!

SKINNYPIG wrote:

Are you implying that God didn't instruct his people to kill entire populations of people? Are you implying that God never instructed his people to inflict pain and despair upon their enemies? Key word "enemies".

Completely ridiculous!

Are you implying that God wants us to torture these people? And it seems to me you are stuck in the old testament sir. There's a reason God sent Jesus and it certainly wasn't to condone war and torture.

gringaloca wrote:

Are you implying that God wants us to torture these people? And it seems to me you are stuck in the old testament sir. There's a reason God sent Jesus and it certainly wasn't to condone war and torture.

Like Lucas, I can't speak for Him, but I will venture to guess he might condone war in some cases.

I have not and will no forget what happened on September 11, 2001. If a few terrorists had to be water boarded in order to prevent it from happening again I'm all for it. To think the Bush admin didn't struggle with this "torture" issue is simply crazy. Right or wrong, they did what they thought would protect American citizens...Not for the fun of it...Please!!! Why can't you get over it? It pales in comparison to what thousands of our fellow Americans had to endure.

I have a feeling some are just joining in with Obama on the issue because he's made it into a political circus.

I guarantee you wouldn't care one bit who got water boarded if it was your butt on the line. Give me a break!

I agree with John McCain's take on waterboarding...and those of several other current and military personel that I know. This has nothing to do with President Obama. This was an issue brought up during the campaign and I made my decision on it back then.

SKINNYPIG wrote:

Like Lucas, I can't speak for Him, but I will venture to guess he might condone war in some cases.

I have not and will no forget what happened on September 11, 2001. If a few terrorists had to be water boarded in order to prevent it from happening again I'm all for it. To think the Bush admin didn't struggle with this "torture" issue is simply crazy. Right or wrong, they did what they thought would protect American citizens...Not for the fun of it...Please!!! Why can't you get over it? It pales in comparison to what thousands of our fellow Americans had to endure.

I have a feeling some are just joining in with Obama on the issue because he's made it into a political circus.

I guarantee you wouldn't care one bit who got water boarded if it was your butt on the line. Give me a break!

It's not up to us. It's up to our government to make the correct, legal decisions. And you are being highly offensive. Like I have forgot about September 11th. I wonder why the people who lost loved ones are so against waterboarding, etc. I guess they must have forgot about their loved ones. And as far as God goes, there is nothing to think about. It says in the Bible how we are supposed to behave and torture isn't something Jesus would do. People need to quit picking and choosing what they want out of the Bible to suit their current circumstance. This all goes back to people letting fear fog their thinking. Torture is illegal and waterboarding is considered torture whether any of you think it is or not and it's against the teaching of Jesus Christ. Twist it all you want. There is no excuse good enough for it not even if you think for some bizarre reason that it will save your hide. Waterboarding has done nothing to keep us safer so it is TOTALLY pointless unless you just enjoy getting revenge for 9-11.

gringaloca wrote:

It's not up to us. It's up to our government to make the correct, legal decisions. And you are being highly offensive. Like I have forgot about September 11th. I wonder why the people who lost loved ones are so against waterboarding, etc. I guess they must have forgot about their loved ones. And as far as God goes, there is nothing to think about. It says in the Bible how we are supposed to behave and torture isn't something Jesus would do. People need to quit picking and choosing what they want out of the Bible to suit their current circumstance. This all goes back to people letting fear fog their thinking. Torture is illegal and waterboarding is considered torture whether any of you think it is or not and it's against the teaching of Jesus Christ. Twist it all you want. There is no excuse good enough for it not even if you think for some bizarre reason that it will save your hide. Waterboarding has done nothing to keep us safer so it is TOTALLY pointless unless you just enjoy getting revenge for 9-11.

I for one am totally in favor for getting revenge for the attack on our nation... And I am totally fine with any methods it takes to keep our country safe... Still could not find your link as to who we killed by water boarding... And please don't tell me that you are pro-murder but have a problem with torture...

gringaloca wrote:

"Well, I know one thing that the "man" wouldn't do and that is torture people. Period. Just because we aren't a Christian nation doesn't mean we don't have ethics and morals. And the problem here is that most of the people who are all of the sudden pro-torture are Christians. I doubt he'll be passing out free passes at the pearly gates for republicans or anyone else who thinks it's ok to waterboard people. And during biblical times women took certain herbs to terminate pregnancies. I wonder if "pro-life" people think that a woman should be forced to give birth to a child that was conceived from incest? And something else I find pretty hypocritical is that these so called "pro-life" people have no problem dropping bombs on cities full of babies and children. I doubt Jesus would find that perfectly ok either.

Now I get.. A women can take certain herbs to murder her baby and that's OK with Jesus...

Lucas McCain wrote:

gringaloca wrote:

"Well, I know one thing that the "man" wouldn't do and that is torture people. Period. Just because we aren't a Christian nation doesn't mean we don't have ethics and morals. And the problem here is that most of the people who are all of the sudden pro-torture are Christians. I doubt he'll be passing out free passes at the pearly gates for republicans or anyone else who thinks it's ok to waterboard people. And during biblical times women took certain herbs to terminate pregnancies. I wonder if "pro-life" people think that a woman should be forced to give birth to a child that was conceived from incest? And something else I find pretty hypocritical is that these so called "pro-life" people have no problem dropping bombs on cities full of babies and children. I doubt Jesus would find that perfectly ok either.

Now I get.. A women can take certain herbs to murder her baby and that's OK with Jesus...

I told you once or twice already that those links have already been provided. Now you are just being obtuse. I don't have the time for it. And yes, women back then did take herbs to stop unwanted pregnancies. Did the Bible mention thou shalt not take herbs to stop unwanted pregnancies? No, it didn't. Quit pretending like you are the mouthpiece of God because you certainly are not (Thank God). Especially after those comments about revenge. My 4th grader learned better Christian behavior in vacation Bible school.

gringaloca wrote:

Lucas McCain wrote:

gringaloca wrote:

"Well, I know one thing that the "man" wouldn't do and that is torture people. Period. Just because we aren't a Christian nation doesn't mean we don't have ethics and morals. And the problem here is that most of the people who are all of the sudden pro-torture are Christians. I doubt he'll be passing out free passes at the pearly gates for republicans or anyone else who thinks it's ok to waterboard people. And during biblical times women took certain herbs to terminate pregnancies. I wonder if "pro-life" people think that a woman should be forced to give birth to a child that was conceived from incest? And something else I find pretty hypocritical is that these so called "pro-life" people have no problem dropping bombs on cities full of babies and children. I doubt Jesus would find that perfectly ok either.

Now I get.. A women can take certain herbs to murder her baby and that's OK with Jesus...

I told you once or twice already that those links have already been provided. Now you are just being obtuse. I don't have the time for it. And yes, women back then did take herbs to stop unwanted pregnancies. Did the Bible mention thou shalt not take herbs to stop unwanted pregnancies? No, it didn't. Quit pretending like you are the mouthpiece of God because you certainly are not (Thank God). Especially after those comments about revenge. My 4th grader learned better Christian behavior in vacation Bible school.

NO links have been provided in this thread that states who we have killed by water boarding... If you are going to make accusations at least TRY to back them up... And you are correct.. The bible does not say thou shall not take herbs.. It says thou shall not kill.. A link to a story about these special herbs would be helpful also.. I mean seriously, where do you get this kind of info??

Lucas McCain wrote:

gringaloca wrote:

Lucas McCain wrote:

gringaloca wrote:

"Well, I know one thing that the "man" wouldn't do and that is torture people. Period. Just because we aren't a Christian nation doesn't mean we don't have ethics and morals. And the problem here is that most of the people who are all of the sudden pro-torture are Christians. I doubt he'll be passing out free passes at the pearly gates for republicans or anyone else who thinks it's ok to waterboard people. And during biblical times women took certain herbs to terminate pregnancies. I wonder if "pro-life" people think that a woman should be forced to give birth to a child that was conceived from incest? And something else I find pretty hypocritical is that these so called "pro-life" people have no problem dropping bombs on cities full of babies and children. I doubt Jesus would find that perfectly ok either.

Now I get.. A women can take certain herbs to murder her baby and that's OK with Jesus...

I told you once or twice already that those links have already been provided. Now you are just being obtuse. I don't have the time for it. And yes, women back then did take herbs to stop unwanted pregnancies. Did the Bible mention thou shalt not take herbs to stop unwanted pregnancies? No, it didn't. Quit pretending like you are the mouthpiece of God because you certainly are not (Thank God). Especially after those comments about revenge. My 4th grader learned better Christian behavior in vacation Bible school.

NO links have been provided in this thread that states who we have killed by water boarding... If you are going to make accusations at least TRY to back them up... And you are correct.. The bible does not say thou shall not take herbs.. It says thou shall not kill.. A link to a story about these special herbs would be helpful also.. I mean seriously, where do you get this kind of info??

Not from Fixed News, like you get all yours.

Lucas McCain wrote:

gringaloca wrote:

Lucas McCain wrote:

gringaloca wrote:

"Well, I know one thing that the "man" wouldn't do and that is torture people. Period. Just because we aren't a Christian nation doesn't mean we don't have ethics and morals. And the problem here is that most of the people who are all of the sudden pro-torture are Christians. I doubt he'll be passing out free passes at the pearly gates for republicans or anyone else who thinks it's ok to waterboard people. And during biblical times women took certain herbs to terminate pregnancies. I wonder if "pro-life" people think that a woman should be forced to give birth to a child that was conceived from incest? And something else I find pretty hypocritical is that these so called "pro-life" people have no problem dropping bombs on cities full of babies and children. I doubt Jesus would find that perfectly ok either.

Now I get.. A women can take certain herbs to murder her baby and that's OK with Jesus...

I told you once or twice already that those links have already been provided. Now you are just being obtuse. I don't have the time for it. And yes, women back then did take herbs to stop unwanted pregnancies. Did the Bible mention thou shalt not take herbs to stop unwanted pregnancies? No, it didn't. Quit pretending like you are the mouthpiece of God because you certainly are not (Thank God). Especially after those comments about revenge. My 4th grader learned better Christian behavior in vacation Bible school.

NO links have been provided in this thread that states who we have killed by water boarding... If you are going to make accusations at least TRY to back them up... And you are correct.. The bible does not say thou shall not take herbs.. It says thou shall not kill.. A link to a story about these special herbs would be helpful also.. I mean seriously, where do you get this kind of info??

The following is a list of links to different articles involving prisoners who were murdered, tortured to death or just mysteriously died while in US custody during the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. These are credible sources and for some reason I just couldn't find any on Fox News. I can't imagine why. If you read news sources that weren't all republican leaning and biased, you would already know this. Several of these people died during interrogation. Hopefully I provided enough different news sources to satisfy the average die hard republican but for some reason I doubt it.

BBC report from 2006

BBC Report from 2004

Report from MSNBC 2005

Parial list of names of people who died from Brussells Tribunal

Report from ABC News 2006

CBS news report from 2005

Report from After Downing Street

Report from French Press

Prisoners Murdered Article from Associated Press


Ok, on to the abortion thing. I found this article rather interesting. It goes back to what I was saying about certain Christians picking and choosing the parts of the Bible that suits their current needs. By taking verses out of context you can *make God* say whatever you like. You can even make the Bible sound like soft porn. People have to take the Bible in it's full context plus you also have to remind yourself that the Bible was written by man and several books were left out of the Bible we currently have for political and personal reasons.




Interesting take on abortion and the Bible

A woman was ordered to abort her baby because she had been unfaithful to her husband. This was a common sentence if a woman was rumored to be pregnant with another mans baby. If she aborted they assumed the rumors were true and she was guilty of adultery and was probably stoned to death in the street. If she didn't abort and remained pregnant, they thought it meant the baby was her husbands.

Verse from the Bible where a woman was ordered to drink "bitter water" to abort

Quote :

A medieval herbal reference called De Viribus Herbarum referred to herbs to induce abortions even earlier in the 11th century. Pennyroyal was among the herbs mentioned but so were catnip, rue. Sage, savory, cypress, and hellebore (note 6). Some of the drugs are listed as emmagogues rather that explicitly as abortifacents, but since the most common cause of a late menstrual period is pregnancy, there is little doubt why they were prescribed and used. Hildegard of Bingen mentions the use of tansy to bring on menstruation.

Some herbs have been mentioned for centuries. One is a plant called the worm fern whose root is used to cause an abortion. It is telling that it was also known as "prostitute’s root" historically. Also used in the same area of Europe were thyme, parsley, lavender, and savin juniper. Even concoctions of camel saliva and deer hair were used (note 7).

The right of women to seek abortions was not restricted in many places until fairly recently, with most restrictions being related to the time of "quickening" or fetal movement. Even Plato proclaimed the right of women to seek early terminations of pregnancies in "Theaetetus", but specifically he spoke of the right of midwives to offer the procedure. In early times, most pregnancies were not managed by doctors so it was logical that abortion be provided by midwives and herbalists.

Aborttion in Ancient Times link

Christianity has been around for over 2000 years and not until quite recently did the church suddenly believe it to be evil. It's become more of a political issue than a personal choice. Republicans say they don't want government in control but yet they want the government to say whether or not a woman should have an abortion. Believe it or not, I'm personally against abortion. I could never consider one unless I was raped but I don't think it's my job to pass judgment on others. What they do with their bodies is between them and God. Period.

Now let's see if I just wasted my time providing all of this info when I doubt certain folks will even take the time to read it or consider it.

[/quote]Who have "we" put to death??? Link?[/quote]

General Yamashita and those under his command for waterboarding our soldiers and other allied troops during world war 2 were assassinated by the US for their war crimes.

Link from Time

Americans who waterboarded during the Spanish-American war were convicted and the General in charge was dismissed from the Army.

In 1983 Sheriff James Parker and three of his deputies were convicted and sent to prison for the use of waterboarding by Ronald Reagan's department of Justice. Reagan considered it torture and so does Mrs. Reagan. The sheriff got ten years in prison and his deputies each got four years in federal prison.

Link about incident and conviction

Waterboarding is torture and illegal according to the Geneva Conventions Common Article Three. I believe that Ja' Far already posted that above.

Gringa, those that we put on trial and put to death wasn't just because they waterboarded. They did other things that actually were torture, the left know this, they just choose to ignore that fact.

gringaloca wrote:

Waterboarding is torture and illegal according to the Geneva Conventions Common Article Three. I believe that Ja' Far already posted that above.

I believe that the Geneva Convention does not apply to terrorists.

They dont represent a country in battle.
They don't wear a uniform.
They dont use conventional weapons or tactics.
They dont abide by the well treatment of prisoners.

They are illegal combatants because they do not abide by any of the requirements of the Geneva Conventions. And the Conventions quite clearly state that its protection only applies to people who follow them.

Mongo wrote:

Gringa, those that we put on trial and put to death wasn't just because they waterboarded. They did other things that actually were torture, the left know this, they just choose to ignore that fact.

Mongo, I don't expect you to ever admit waterboarding is torture but it is illegal and our country has recognized it as torture. As far as the Japanese general and his minions being put to death, waterboarded was cited specifically in those charges as torture. Doesn't matter if there were other things done or not. They were all recognized as torture and they were put to death. Not to mention the DOJ's ruling in the 80's and the Spanish American war. I think they should take a survey of all the people who have been waterboarded, people who have actually experienced it, and ask them if they believe it's torture. I think you'll be surprised what the answers would be. It's easy to sit in your chair at home and say it doesn't look so bad. Try experiencing it and see what you think. Apparently it's scary enough to give people heart attacks, so it's not a walk in the park. And the biggest problem with waterboarding is that it does not work. You can get people to say whatever you want when they are being tortured. It's pointless and ineffective and the information you get from it will either be incorrect or thrown out of court for violating the persons human rights. Waterboarding didn't save anybody's lives. It's time to find another more intelligent way to get information.

Thanks for the links.. Lots of info BUT not a single death associated with water boarding.. And as far as I can tell none of the articles on the herbs includes any statements about the bible condoning abortion...